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citizen View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21/March/2008 at 10:33am
since the review brought the issue up again...
has the town ever discussed this issue? town meetings?
 
i know it has come in bits and pieces. i know the review believes it is weak form of govt.i know elected officials believe it is a weak, also - until they get elected.
 
i wasn't around for the home-rule discussion. assume it came up then.
anybody have a background on this?
 
p.s. watcher, if this has been discussed before i'm sure you will point it out. i did a search, but only found bits & pieces.
 
 


Edited by citizen - 21/March/2008 at 10:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21/March/2008 at 11:08am
The home rule discussions were back in a former version of the board.
There were also flame wars over the referendum on the forgotten email listserve.

Bandit might have copies???

Form of government is not FoPa's problem. The commission form worked very well for the town before it was taken over and worked against the established traditions.

Any form of government is prone to shortcomings. IMO, the commission form is well-suited to address FoPa's needs. That stealth and cleverness by its manipulators has replaced discussion, participation and openness is not the result of the structure.

One of the big arguments for changing our structure was that it was too hard to raise revenue under the commission form. Imagine where we'd be if it were easier to raise revenues.



"It is a wreave belief that we already are in Hell."- Tuluk in Frank Herbert's "Whipping Star"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bcbandit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21/March/2008 at 12:18pm
:) Might?? :)  I have to Go threw my 25,000 e-mails and Then Copy&Paste All the comments for the Home Rule..

HOWEVER... IF .. And thats IF Someone has their name "As in part of their e-mail " on a post I will Hide the ID of that person..
It should be posted later today..

Enjoy BCB...


I'm Chevy Chase and It's Time for the news.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21/March/2008 at 12:40pm
This was written 9/05, just about summed-up my thoughts on the home rule issue.

http://www.forestparkreview.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=619&SectionID=3&SubSectionID=3&S=1 


Also remember a post, can't remember the poster, about how the administration was not forthcoming, the citizens lied to about the affect home rule would have on FP. Called the post into question, at that time, but never got an answer.




Edited by logic - 21/March/2008 at 12:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piehead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21/March/2008 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by logic logic wrote:

Also remember a post, can't remember the poster, about how the administration was not forthcoming, the citizens lied to about the affect home rule would have on FP. Called the post into question, at that time, but never got an answer.
 
If the question was asked of someone like our mayor, and the answer wouldn't be rosy and sunny, that would explain why no answer.  Reading his cover letter on the village newsletter that arrived yesterday it's amazing he didn't wrench his shoulder patting himself on the back LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21/March/2008 at 2:03pm
Think the poster may have been Mr Doolin but don't quote me, I may be wrong. Anyway, would still like to know how the residents of FP were mislead as to the benefits of home rule. Somebody? Anybody? Know, at the time, they were pushing home rule as a save all, improve all, benefit all of FP.


Edited by logic - 21/March/2008 at 2:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21/March/2008 at 6:44pm
thanks for link, logic.
poked around on the journal site re: dwyer's references to RF.
they formed a 9 person home rule committee: did serious research, published majority/minority arguments, finally voted 5-4 in support.
but doesn't appear ever ended up on the ballot.
 
trust was the citizens/issue for voters, but proponents say education is the key.  At%20a%20loss
 
i still don't understand the issue. nor do i understand how it relates to CFoG.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22/March/2008 at 11:00am
Don't understand ALL the implications of Home Rule, so maybe education is the key but doesn't stand alone. You need to be able to trust the hands that wield the sword.


Edited by logic - 22/March/2008 at 11:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23/March/2008 at 10:36am
get the impression that our vc is bucking the national trend - 'no thank you' to change :)
they would probably love home rule, but then our CFoG of govt would have to be discussed.
rock & a hard place.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23/March/2008 at 10:49am
Originally posted by watcher watcher wrote:


Form of government is not FoPa's problem. The commission form worked very well for the town before it was taken over and worked against the established traditions.

...the commission form is well-suited to address FoPa's needs. That stealth and cleverness by its manipulators has replaced discussion, participation and openness is not the result of the structure.
 
watcher, isn't that the point? that CFoG structure invites corruption, incompetence.
that it used to work, before its weaknesses were discovered/manipulated doesn't exactly justify its continuation.
i'm usually for simpler is better, but how do we put the worms back in the can?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piehead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23/March/2008 at 10:58am
So citizen, what form of government are you looking for in FP?  Trustees? 
 
What other forms are out there for small village and how are they better?


Edited by piehead - 23/March/2008 at 11:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23/March/2008 at 12:29pm
first, i'm looking for a good education/debate on CFoG.
 
i don't have watcher's perspective of when this model worked well. assume he is accurate on the history.
 
i'm looking for
1) expertise.
our system does not promote that, e.g. the entrepreneur in charge of traffic, or the PR guy in charge of finances.
2) efficiency.
same as above. hypothetically, the hiring of an administrator (sturino) could have helped, but appears all it did was put more power in the hands of the mayor. and confuse/defuse the other commissioners.
3) accountability.
fine, mike curry - you are now officially held accountable for all the work, or lack of, from the Building dept this past year. i'm kidding, of course, as that is a silly expectation.
 
we spend at least $200k to the vc and sturino.
 
as you can see, i don't 'get' our system. how does it work well for us?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piehead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23/March/2008 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by citizen citizen wrote:

we spend at least $200k to the vc and sturino.
 
as you can see, i don't 'get' our system. how does it work well for us?
 
Got me.  I know one thing they aren't good at....real estate purchases...1000 Beloit for instance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bcbandit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/March/2008 at 3:52am
I Found A lot of the Home rule E-mails...  SO. I'm Going to make a Section and Wather will get the password and go threw it and Clean it up  + take care of the names...

I had to go back to I belive 10-01-2000   , Plus it also has a Sub-Topic od Taxes-taxes-taxes...

So I'll make a Section and let watcher Clean it up..
And Yes name will Be Private.. BCB...

I'm Chevy Chase and It's Time for the news.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/March/2008 at 7:48am
Does watcher know you've assigned him this job?:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/March/2008 at 9:25pm
hey watcher.
how big is this project? any estimates on finish time?
 
p.s. any good stuff in there? here's hoping. and thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bcbandit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26/March/2008 at 11:40pm
I Just Dropped  About 40 E-mails for Watcher.. he can go threw all the home rule stuff and then "Debate" on what to put out.. :)..   

I got e-mails from alot of Subjects  ..    Enjoy.. BCB..
I'm Chevy Chase and It's Time for the news.
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Originally posted by citizen citizen wrote:

hey watcher.
how big is this project? any estimates on finish time?p.s. any good stuff in there? here's hoping. and thanks.


Iron Pyrite?

Not much there there. Well, there's plenty of anti-home rule sentiment and the cons of bestowing home-rule authority. Little pro-home rule besides this little bit from Mayor Calderone.

<snip>
"The opponents to Home rule can ONLY lay their claim to fame about the
potential for taxes.

They intentional leave out the fact that home rule does not automatically imply taxation. An intentional coincidence.

What home rule is about is solving local problems locally. Sounds simple and it is.

The opponents are making it way more than what it is. Another coincidence.

Home rule is about Forest Park being able to control it's own destiny without having to turn to Springfield every time we need good legislation.

The facts in respect to Home rule are;

1. Of the towns that have home rule, over 86% of the initiatives were for non
tax related issues.

2. A 30 year study conducted by Northern Illinois University presented 29 different and distinct communities that had home rule and referendums were placed on the ballot to remove home rule. In only 4 cases was home rule abolished. 25 of those re supported maintaining home rule. This is quite astonishing.

If you want clear examples of non tax related issues that can improve the quality of life in Forest Park feel free to call me at 708-366-2323- ext 158.

Kindest Regard,
Mayor Anthony Calderone   "

<end snip>

In other words, CITO. Like the Comprehensive Plan, Zoning Changes, Em Dom, Parking, Police & Fire Commissions, Traffic and Safety... Call or stop by for a one on one chat.
Have some Kool-Aid and join the Kool Kids Klub. Don't listen to reason or research the topic yourself, trust us. We know what's best for you.

The problems of home rule and our form of government stem from similar roots. In the final analysis, how local government works is dependent on the people empowered to conduct the peoples' business.
Home rule powers combined with the power bestowed by the commission form would be formidable.

Given our experience, it sure seems like the voters made at least one wise choice back then.


"It is a wreave belief that we already are in Hell."- Tuluk in Frank Herbert's "Whipping Star"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27/March/2008 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by watcher watcher wrote:

 

If you want clear examples of non tax related issues that can improve the quality of life in Forest Park.
Since it's been reported the Mayor is no longer a proponent of Home Rule, could we please have some clear examples of the above from HR supporters?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27/March/2008 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by watcher watcher wrote:

Originally posted by citizen citizen wrote:

hey watcher.
how big is this project? any estimates on finish time?p.s. any good stuff in there? here's hoping. and thanks.


Home rule powers combined with the power bestowed by the commission form would be formidable.

 
absolutely agree, double trouble.
was there any talk of trading commissioner form for a trustee form - in exchange for home rule?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piehead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27/March/2008 at 5:53pm
And what's the difference between trustees and commissioners?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27/March/2008 at 8:10pm
assume this is accurate for illinois. for starters.
 
Aldermanic-City Form (obviously FP is too small for this form)
Under the aldermanic-city form, the legislative body ordinarily consists of two aldermen from each ward elected for a four-year term. Their terms are staggered so that half are elected every two years. The number of aldermen elected depends upon the population of the city. The mayor is the chief executive officer of the municipality. The mayor, city clerk, and city treasurer are elected at large (Village or citywide) to a four-year term. Other offices and vacancies are filled by appointment by the mayor with the advice and consent of the council, although it may be provided by ordinance that these offices be filled by election.
 
Trustee-Village Form (the form our neighbors have, and most towns our size)
Under the trustee-village form, the legislative body consists of six trustees, generally elected from the village at large. The number of trustees does not vary with the size of the municipality. Villages of over 25,000 population may have each of the six trustees elected by district instead of from the village.
The village president and clerk are elected at large, but the village treasurer is appointed. The term of the president, trustees, and clerk is four years, unless reduced to two years by referendum. As with the mayor in the aldermanic-city form, the appointments to all nonelective offices are made by the president with the advice and consent of the board of trustees. If the village collector is appointed, the village board may provide by ordinance that the elected village clerk also hold the office of village collector.
 
Commission Form (our present form, very uncommon)
The commission form of government is limited to cities or villages under 200,000 population. Under this form, the voters elect at large a mayor and four commissioners who serve as the council. At the first regular meeting after an election, the council designates each member to be either the commissioner of accounts and finances, public health and safety, streets and public improvements, or public property. The mayor serves as commissioner of public affairs. The council may elect the clerk and treasurer, as well as all the other officers whose appointment is not delegated, as it may be, to one commissioner. Each commissioner is given executive control over such administrative departments as may be assigned to him. By referendum, the electors may provide for the election of commissioners to specific departments.
 
Manager Form (i believe this is form of our neighbors)
The manager form of government is available to all municipalities under 500,000 in population. The municipality may retain its governmental structure as an aldermanic-city form, trustee-village form, or commission form while adopting the features of the manager form.
 
Under this form, the power of the council or board is purely legislative, except that it is empowered to approve all expenses and liabilities of the municipality. The manager is the administrative and executive head of the government for some purposes. The manager appoints and removes all officers not required to be elected. The appointment to most boards, commissions, and other municipal agencies resides in the mayor or president subject to council or board confirmation.
 
Strong Mayor Form (goes w/alderman form?)
This form of government has an elected mayor, clerk, and treasurer and, depending upon the size of the community, from eight to twenty aldermen elected from wards. The terms of elected officials are four years. The functions of an ordinary mayor are generally merged with the powers accorded a municipal manager. The mayor is given the power, without council approval, to appoint and remove his administrative assistants, budget and finance director, heads of all departments, and all other officers of the municipality, and members of commissions, boards, and agencies, except those covered by civil service. The powers of the council are purely legislative.
 
Administrative Form (i assume that is also ours - mike sturino)
This "form" of government is not specifically sanctioned by statute but is in use in a number of municipalities. It may be used in all but the manager form of government. It is not really a "form" of government but rather a legislative device adopted by municipalities which seek a full-time administrator without the permanency of the manager form of government. Under this system, a municipality creates by ordinance the office or employment of "administrator" and endows such an office or employment with certain administrative powers. The administrator may be made the administrative head of all departments and may be given any power not specifically granted to another person by statute. The administrator may be appointed for a term or hired by contract, or his employment may be for an unspecified period. In any case, he may be removed like any other officer or employee subject to the payment of any valid remaining portion of his contract. This system of government allows for a full-time administrator to conduct the day-to-day operations of a community armed with as much or as little power as the corporate authorities may from time to time provide by ordinance.
 
anyone - if the above is inaccurate, please let us know.
what was your question, pie? LOL
 
 


Edited by citizen - 27/March/2008 at 9:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28/March/2008 at 6:54am
Originally posted by piehead piehead wrote:

And what's the difference between trustees and commissioners?


Fifty bucks. Same as downtown.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30/March/2008 at 11:07am
what's your point?
that nothing will improve unless FP voters become involved?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piehead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30/March/2008 at 11:19am
That would be my guess; that and get some people in there that really do care about ALL the citizens, not just the ones who voted for them.  Otherwise, you know those in charge won't be very "excited" to take your issues off the bottom of the pile. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/April/2008 at 9:41am
Originally posted by citizen citizen wrote:

what's your point?
that nothing will improve unless FP voters become involved?


My point is that there's no "time-out". Do you think people expect all the services provided by government? Do you think they accept the costs as usual and customary? Do you think they know how their monies are spent?

We elect popular people who then use our money to maintain and perpetuate their popularity. The form barely matters. FoPa has entered a new phase of government where growth and prosperity are measured by how much money is spent, not whether it's spent wisely, or for the <b>general</b> welfare, as long as it's more and can be used to keep dissatisfaction below a threshold that would risk being re-elected.

If the obviousness escapes people, what point is there to keep pointing it out? It only takes 3 votes cast, by those elected by 50.1% of the people who bother to vote, to call the shots for everybody. Marginalize the nay-sayers, cough-talk and point fingers? That's license to keep it going.




Edited by watcher - 01/April/2008 at 9:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/April/2008 at 9:47pm
psshh. you're cynical.
 
'it's the form, stupid.'  and the cowboys.
let's run 'em out of town, marshall.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/April/2008 at 7:58am
Originally posted by citizen citizen wrote:

psshh. you're cynical.


Came by it the old fashioned way.

When enough people become unafraid, things will get much better.
Or at the least, saner.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/February/2009 at 9:52am
bump.
am looking for the state ordinance which supposedly spells out roles & responsibilities of commish form. anyone?
hard to argue (here, the review, the council table) who is abusing what without a copy of the rules.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote videoguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/February/2009 at 11:02am
Let me put this in clear terms:

It doesnt matter what form of government we have if the people in charge of making decisions are stupid, narrow, uneducated, cannot think outside the box, lack integrity, lack honesty, lack transparency in their actions, if they lie, obfuscate, and otherwise make things difficult.

In other words, you can bake a cake lots of ways. You can have a 5 year old bake one or a Cordon Blue chef. But if you use s**t instead of chocolate, you end up with a s**t cake.
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