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logic View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24/July/2008 at 1:01am
Hmmmm....... Mr D, why didn't you give everyone a heads-up on this one?

http://www.forestparkreview.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=38&ArticleID=3360
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24/July/2008 at 8:38am
Hmmmmm....... Logic, because it's not my job to trumpet every development. But there will be more "heads up" coming, bet on it.

BTW, it'll be fascinating to hear what Lil MAC says under oath, under penalty of perjury, at the Harder trial.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24/July/2008 at 10:42am
Originally posted by Mr. D Mr. D wrote:

Hmmmmm....... Logic, because it's not my job to trumpet every development. But there will be more "heads up" coming, bet on it.
Hmmmmm...but Mr D, you have no problem using your megaphone with every bit of negative press about this administration.


Edited by logic - 24/July/2008 at 10:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24/July/2008 at 4:25pm
You mean, like criminal convictions of police officers for violating the rights of both the public and their own colleagues? And numerous costly civil suit settlements against the village- with the costliest yet to come-that could have been avoided by anyone with a brain? And a governmental process with all the transparency of a cataract? And a chief of police an Assistant US Attorney all but called a liar in federal court?

Yeah, Logic, I'm all about trumpeting those documented facts, as opposed to "negative press," as you so blandly put it. My only gripe is I don't have a bigger megaphone.

What negatives about this administration would you prefer be kept on the QT?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KPO'M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24/July/2008 at 8:59pm
A common legal strategy is to add as many people as possible to a lawsuit. Over the course of a suit, some parties are often dismissed, though ultimately the plaintiff wins a case or reaches a settlement with one or more parties. The judge ruled that Harder's dismissal was "arbitrary" and "unreasonable," so it's likely he will win a judgment if that ruling stands after appeal.

Logic, for someone who commented so much about legal strategy in rationalizing Murphy's decision to cop a plea, you should be aware that developments such as these are fairly routine.

As for the "negative press," the mayor and his puppets on the council seem to do enough in that department. Even articles relatively positive or neutral about the village have been marred by the mayor's and Hosty's respective snippy quotes. Clearly the mayor doesn't like any sort of scrutiny. Given that public service involves lots of scrutiny (and rightfully so), it does call into question his fitness for holding public office, notwithstanding this particular development.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/July/2008 at 12:00am
Mr D, aka Gabriel, the town crier for everything wrong with the Mayor, VC and PD never fails to alert readers, point us in the direction with tantalizing tidbits of news-to-come regarding Harder, Murphy, Ryan..... Maybe it is too much to ask you provide the same service when the outcome of court proceedings isn't quite what you would like to see. I'll lower my expectations.

KP, as far as Murphy, you call it rationalizing, I, the smarter choice for his family and himself. Never know what a jury will do, could have had a Rodney King jury or a throw the book jury, both of which would have been extreme. Yes, I stuck up for Murphy, no regrets. Please feel free to throw it up to me as often as you like.

Sgt Harder's pathway to $$$ may be a little more difficult than even I once believed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/July/2008 at 10:05am
More "tantalizing tidbits" coming, Illogic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/July/2008 at 10:40am
Thanks, Dr D, but I'll find my own news, you're inconsistently consistent. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/July/2008 at 11:38am
Originally posted by Mr. D Mr. D wrote:

More "tantalizing tidbits" coming, Illogic.
Maybe so Mr D, but it won't change this, "A federal judge weighing evidence in a lawsuit filed by former police sergeant Dan Harder has ruled that there is nothing to tie the mayor of Forest Park to Harder's claim that he's the victim of a political conspiracy."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KPO'M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/July/2008 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by logic logic wrote:


KP, as far as Murphy, you call it rationalizing, I, the smarter choice for his family and himself. Never know what a jury will do, could have had a Rodney King jury or a throw the book jury, both of which would have been extreme. Yes, I stuck up for Murphy, no regrets. Please feel free to throw it up to me as often as you like.

Sgt Harder's pathway to $$$ may be a little more difficult than even I once believed.


Hmm.  Homeless guy vs. policeman.  It seems the court of public opinion sides with the policeman, if the articles and letters to the editor are any indication (as well as the postings here).  We don't have cops copping pleas every day, logic.  It's pretty clear the feds had a decent case, but probably weren't after Murphy as the main target. 

Harder will probably get money from the village, though not from Calderone personally.  Elected officials do have some degree of protection against personal liability for governmental action, which is probably what the judge was thinking here. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KPO'M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/July/2008 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by logic logic wrote:

Thanks, Dr D, but I'll find my own news, you're inconsistently consistent. Wink


Yes, it's called the Forest Park Post.  According to logic, all is well in the world, and whatever Mayor Calderone says is right, because he's such a nice guy and would never do something that isn't in our best interests, and of course, there's no way a policeman would ever do anything illegal.


Edited by KPO'M - 25/July/2008 at 7:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/July/2008 at 10:26pm
Oh, I think Logic is well aware that policemen are capable of doing something illegal to someone she loves. She just has trouble identifying the people who actually stuck their necks out helping that person. And gets quite upset when someone rips those who pretend to be the good guys.

But at least she's consistent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26/July/2008 at 1:38am
So, it's finally come to this,  the Hardy Boys are ganging up on me. KP has put me in-cahoots with the Mayor/Amy Rita and Mr D really believes he can spot the good guys. Hmmmm....... My%20taint%20is%20itchy,

Edited by logic - 26/July/2008 at 1:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dogcatcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26/July/2008 at 2:26am
Logic does this mean you are going to lose a few nights sleep?Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26/July/2008 at 9:18am
Just one of those things in life, DC, will never be able to clarify, have to let it go. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, it's what keeps this forum alive:)
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Never said I could spot the good guys, illogic. I said you have trouble giving credit to people who stuck their necks out formally long before a supposedly upstanding cop mentioned he'd been told a woman cop was sexually assaulted to his goof ball commissioner friend.

If it had all rested on Mike Murphy's meager ethical shoulders, a certain abused officer would never have collected a $300,000 settlement.

The record, when it all comes out, and it will all come out, will show that Murphy and Ryan lied-- in reports, in department correspondence, in depositions. Think of the old adage, "Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we endeavor to deceive."

As prosecutor Sergio Acosta stated to the court July 9, when defendant Murphy was sentenced to a year in prison, "The chief of police of this department was aware of the fact that a crime was committed and took no action, took no action whatsoever."

But tell you what, illogic, DC, and all you other head in the sand types desperately looking about for excuses for Murphy and Ryan and Lil' MAC, I'll start a new posting and put up some court transcripts and trial documents and such, and you can read them for yourselves.

Then you can tell me whether you still think the federal government is through with Forest Park and its police department.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26/July/2008 at 10:05am
Originally posted by KPO'M KPO'M wrote:

Hmm.  Homeless guy vs. policeman.  It seems the court of public opinion sides with the policeman, if the articles and letters to the editor are any indication (as well as the postings here).
Try career criminal, with an address vs policeman, maybe that would help explain the court of public opinion? Maybe one day the sad, yes sad, Mr Hooks will come knocking at your door, oh forgot, he doesn't knock or maybe you have a nice car stereo he can take off your hands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26/July/2008 at 10:23am
Originally posted by Mr. D Mr. D wrote:


As prosecutor Sergio Acosta stated to the court July 9, when defendant Murphy was sentenced to a year in prison, "The chief of police of this department was aware of the fact that a crime was committed and took no action, took no action whatsoever."
Surprisingly, even the Review offered a somewhat compassionate opinion in regards to Murphy, even Ryan. It was the Mayor who got the whacks. I believe Ryan took the right steps in dealing with the Murphy issue.

http://www.forestparkreview.com/main.asp?SectionID=3&SubSectionID=15&ArticleID=3332&TM=40478.87

Here's some unwanted advice, Mr D, don't believe everything somebody tells you, 'cause they seldom tell you everything.
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Yeah, illogic.... violent, abusive cops need al the compassion we can muster when they finally get caught after years of criminal behavior.

Speaking of compassion, here's Judge David H. Coar regarding the government's compassion toward Murphy. Let's listen in, shall we?

"Now, it's certainly within the discretion of the United States Attorney's office, complete discretion to make the charging decision, but it seems to me in this case that there was a generous charging decision made in Mr. Murphy's favor.

"And that having received the benefit of that decision, that all of the mitigating circumstances have already been taken into account here."

Earlier the judge had stated, "Because this was charged as a misdemeanor, which is a little-- strikes me as being generous to Mr. Murphy..."

Later the judge lowers a fine from $7,500 to $1,000, and allows the Murphy family six months, rather than a briefer period, to pay it.

He then sentences Murphy to the maximum sentence allowable under the agreement, saying, "There needs to be a serious punishment for this serious crime."

This is the man some folks refer to as "a hero." Judge Coar thought otherwise, saying, "An armed force, any armed force, without discipline, is a mob, a dangerous mob."

On to the new post, after I check with the powers that be on this website.

While we're waiting, someone ask Chief Ryan about how he handled former Ofc. David Hohl's numerous admitted instances of perjury, theft from individuals and abuse of people in his custody. Ask him what disciplinary action he took against Hohl.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26/July/2008 at 11:07am
In case you haven't noticed, Mr D, the Murphy trial is over. As far as the other, you did use the word FORMER didn't you? 
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It's like spinning your tires sometimes. Wacko

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KPO'M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26/July/2008 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by logic logic wrote:

In case you haven't noticed, Mr D, the Murphy trial is over. As far as the other, you did use the word FORMER didn't you? 


Mr. D knows it.  Sometimes I get the feeling certain village officials don't accept it, with all the praise and fundraisers for the Murphys.  Anyway, seeing the judge's words makes it pretty clear he thinks that Murphy got off easy.  There's no evidence that the judge is biased, so why don't Murphy apologists acknowledge this?
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I assume you mean the other cop, illogic.

And yeah, he's a former cop, who, while he was a sworn law enforcement officer here, repeatedly broke the law, reportedly perjured himself at least five times, each time a felony. Knowing this, the man who is still here as police chief did absolutely nothing-- for nine more months he allowed Hohl to serve on active duty, on the streets.

Just as he's done in four or five or six other cases of alleged serious abuse, felony behavior by officers he's supposed to supervise and discipline. Nothing.

Mr. Acosta stated "A report came back to Chief Ryan from a police department in Ohio, which reflected that Mr, Hohl had admitted, among other things, committing perjury on at least five occasions as a police officer, taking things from people that he arrested, physically abusing people in his custody. As well as pulling over a woman simply because he thought she was good looking."

Ryan, Acosta told the judge, did nothing, didn't "go backand find out in what cases did this man commit perjury, in what cases did he abuse prisoners in his custody."

Here's my favorite Acosta line, illogic. "So that is the police department we're talking about, Judge."

Not just Murphy, the police department as a whole.

Acosta goes on to acknowledge there are good police officers on the force-- Ofc. Grimes, for one, who truly stood up and asserted his ethics, despite intense pressure instead of lying through his teeth as Murphy and Ryan did.

Another officer, the details of which we'll get into later, had the balls to tell Lil MAC he wouldn't lie in court to help the village's position in another case, and the village caved, settling within days. That officer's reward to to have Ryan come after him a year or so later and try to suspend him. But it appears that Ryan, when stood up to, folds like the administratively challenged lackey he is.

Back to Murphy, as Acosta put it, "When Jim Ryan submits to the court a letter saying that all that occurred here was a little bit of excessive force on one occasion, that's downplaying to the ultimate degree, Judge.... there should have been a criminal referral from the beginning of this case."

But this is Forest Park, and people like Jim Ryan and Lil MAC can still count on the support of shallow, unprincipled people like you, illogic, people who look the other way, no matter how egregious the offense, because their family members are employed by the village.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26/July/2008 at 7:08pm
I am sure that Chief Ryan would have disciplined former officer Hohl. If he admitted to perjury fives times, that would be five felonies. Innocent people would have gone to jail. I doubt very highly that Chief Ryan would turn a blind eye to that type of behavior.
 
I also doubt that Chief Ryan would not investigate if an officer said he stole property from people he arrested.
 
I further don't believe that Chief Ryan would not investigate a claim of one of his officers physically abusing people in custody.
 
All in all this could add up to well over a dozen felony charges. He would not let that officer go back on the street for nine months.
 
I know it's not a felony to pull over hot chicks, so Chief Ryan gets my support on this one.
 
What I find so disturbing is that the Federal Judge and Federal Prosecutor spent so much time talking about Chief Jim Ryan during Murphy's trial.
 
I don't think Mr. Acosta would like Ryan's comments after the trial. I wonder if he has a copy of the Forest Park Review?
 
I read that Review article and Chief Ryan accused former sergeant Harder of meddling. I guess if you substitute meddling with whistleblowing about police corruption, it might be a good thing that meddling happened.
 
I don't expect you to believe me, just read what the Federal Prosecutor and Federal Judge had to say about the meddling.
 
Chief Jim Ryan doubted that a crime occured with this incident, even though Murphy testified he lied about everything. I guess if he acknowledges this fact, then people will start to take a closer look at Jim Ryan. I don't think this bothers Jim Ryan, because he seemed pretty critical of the judge and prosecutor in this case.
 
I don't think that Jim Ryan tried to cover up any crimes, that is why he was able to be so critical. Cheers to you Jim Ryan, you showed the Federal Government a thing or two.


Edited by Athena - 26/July/2008 at 7:10pm
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"I know it's not a felony to pull over hot chicks, so Chief Ryan gets my support on this one."

Jeez freakin' Louise, Athena. So, what you're telling us is you don't think it's a big deal to pull someone over-- look up "probable cause", dear, it's in a document called the US Constitution-- for LOOKING HOT? That's beyond stupid.

As for your beloved Jimmy R., "teaching the feds a thing or two," I think our slow witted police chief will inevitably find that feds know a LOT more than a "thing or two" about teaching lessons.

BTW, Athena-- Murphy admitted in court that a crime occurred. Where's the doubt?
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Illogic is happy because on July 18 U.S. District Court Judge James Moran ruled that there is nothing to connect Lil MAC to Dan Harder's claim he's the victim of a political conspiracy.

“Sgt Harder's pathway to $$$ may be a little more difficult than even I once believed,” illogic opines without basis. That’s not to say illogic wouldn’t know about the federal courts as a “pathway to $$$.”

But let’s take a detailed look at what Judge Moran and others have had to say about the Forest Park Police Department administration and Jim Ryan, and what it suggests about whether or not Ryan and the FPPD and the Village of Forest Park are done dealing with federal inquiries.
Since the FPF website in fact doesn’t upload even small pdf files, we’ll have to do this the hard way. Over the next week or two I’ll post, transcribed from the court records, comments from two federal judges and a federal prosecutor regarding the Murphy and Harder cases in general, and how they relate to Jim Ryan in particular.

We’ll start with the federal judge’s ruling that the hacks on the FP Fire and Police Commission erred in firing Harder.
The following is taken word for word from Case 1:05-cv-05800, Document 263. Go look up the file yourself if you have any doubts. Or the people who run this site can fix it so it actually uploads pdfs, as stated.

Here’s what Judge James B. Moran had to say May 2, 2008 regarding Harder’s dismissal and Ryan’s testimony. His comments are in quotations.
Page 12
“(Harder’s) attendance record was stellar and his disciplinary record almost non-existent until the time of Ryan’s tenure.”
“From his very first day, Ryan singled Harder out for discipline.”

Noting that Harder is attempting to prove a retaliation claim for his sexual harassment suit against former police chief Ed Pope, Moran writes:
“the evidence demonstrated that Harder’s sexual harassment claim led to the resignation of the former chief of police, who was replaced by Ryan.
Judge Moran then mentions one of many instances of Ryan’s laughable sense of managerial appropriateness.

“Harder also offered evidence that one of the officers put in charge of his (Harder’s) internal investigation (Lt. Cody) was the very officer previously convicted of battery of a fellow officer—charges which formed the basis of for Harder’s sexual harassment claims.”

And how did Ryan address these facts? Said Judge Moran, “Ryan testified he was not aware of the specifics of the Harder’s claim, nor was he aware of the role Harder played in the charges against Cody (Admin. Record 1188-89).”

Judge Moran clearly doesn’t believe Ryan’s sworn testimony. At best Ryan is portrayed as an incompetent administrator and careless investigator.
“We find it extremely improbable that an incoming police chief would be unaware of the reason for the former police chief’s resignation. For the same reasons, we find it incredible that Ryan did not know the history if the officer he put in charge of Harder’s internal investigation.”

Ryan may want to consult an attorney regarding what he’s portrayed as in the worst case scenario. Especially if reports of his testimony in other venues are true. But the court’s purview is not to retry the charges against Harder in the Fire and Police Commission hearing, so the court defers, even if it clearly disagrees, saying, “Nevertheless, the Board (of Fire and Police) credited Ryan’s testimony, and as much as we would wish to re-evaluate that determination, we cannot.”

The court suggests there is compelling evidence supporting Harder’s claims that the hacks on the FP Fire and Police Commission missed or ignored.
“While we find a wealth of evidence in the record to support a retaliation defense, we are unable, due to our deference to the Board, to say that the Board’s rejection was against the manifest weight of the evidence.”

The judge in Harder’s other federal trial, however, WILL be able to re-evaluate everything the FP Fire and Police Commission hacks did and said.

There’s much, much more to come. Stay tuned for the judge’s take on Harder’s dismissal for dropping the F bomb to a fellow cop. The judge rips the decision “due to uncontroverted evidence of selective enforcement of the rules and regulations in question.”

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30/July/2008 at 12:47pm
Neither Smile nor Cry just reporting the news. Mr D will continue to present 1/2 the picture.  OTOH, I trust all readers to view the whole picture as presented by other available news outlets, use their own judgment and determine for themselves what they believe. Yes, this can be done without trying to shout someone down, name-calling, attacking families or casting aspersions on intent.

With all due respect, neither Judge Moran nor prosecutor Acosta can make a determination on the FPPD as a unit. The decisions in the Murphy case, Harder suit are based on specific incidents and do not represent the actions of the PD as a whole.

Thank you for your time.
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Join in any time you like, Illogic.

Judge Moran, in his May 2 ruling, opted not to revisit nine of the ten charges the FP Board of Fire and Police Hacks found Harder guilty on. But he DID overturn their decision to FIRE Harder.

If FP loses their appeal, they’re (“WE’RE”) faced with re-instating Harder and paying him hundreds of thousands in back pay and other benefits.
So, what did Judge Moran have to say? Well, regarding Harder’s write up for calling another officer a “f*** head,” the judge wrote, “First, we find arbitrary the board’s decision due to uncontroverted evidence of selective enforcement of the rules and regulations in question.”

“The record reveals that no other officer had ever been at risk of losing his or her job for swearing at another officer, either in jest or in seriousness (Administrative record # 345, 526, 918-23, 1078).” In fact, just two officers have ever received ANY sort of punishment, both minor.
“No officer had been suspended, let alone terminated, for the use of profanity…:

As for Harder’s alleged lying to Ryan, the court again defers to the FP Board of Fire and Police Hacks and accepts their ruling that Harder had lied. In that context, the judge wrote:
“While not creating bright line rule, (previous rulings) have generally separated the lies into two categories: those which relate directly to the officer’s public duties and those which only relate to internal police administration…. The former warrant termination, the latter do not.”
“The village asserts these lies bear directly on Harder’s ability to remain a policeman. We disgree,” wrote Judge Moran.

He goes on to note two facts, one supportive of Harder, the other critical of Ryan. “First is Harder’s long and distinguished career on the force… Second, we note Ryan’s complete lack of use of progressive discipline.”

Again deferring to the questionable judgment of the FP Board of Fire and Police Hacks, the court wrote, “In sum, we hold that Harder’s misconduct was not so serious as to warrant termination.”

Before we get to the statements in the 19 page transcript of Mike Murphy’s sentencing hearing sometime in the next day or so, let’s take a quick look at allegations made by another suspect allegedly beaten—brutally and repeatedly—by then Sgt, Murphy.

Keep in mind that Jim Ryan has said in a letter to the court that he was new to the force, so he didn’t know about Murphy. As Murphy’s expensive mouthpiece, Rick Halperin told the judge at sentencing, “Perhaps Chief Ryan, in evaluating someone he didn’t know… looked at the rest of his 19 year career…”

He'd only had to have gone back 15 months to find a real red flag. Perhaps Murphy, who said he beat Sidney Hooks in part due to stress related to being a whistle blower, was also under stress on May 16, 2002, when he arrested a car thief named Robert Wilson. In his civil complaint, Wilson said he stepped out of the car, surrendered, and was handcuffed by Murphy, who then demanded to know why he’d stolen the car. Utilizing his Constitutional right to remain silent, Wilson didn’t answer.

Murphy’s alleged response was to beat and kick Wilson to the ground, still hand cuffed, “to the point that blood began to pour out of his mouth.” Wilson allegedly offered no resistance. Murphy’s weapon of choice that time was not a baton, but, reportedly, his flash light.

Wilson alleged that when a second officer arrived and was filled in by Murphy, the two officers beat him again, stomping him on the head. Wilson states in court documents he suffered total loss of hearing in one ear, acute pain for several months due to cranial and nerve damage. The head stomping, he alleged, left him with a facial deformity. He settled with the village out of court.

It’s fair to assume that any competent police administrator would have investigated the specifics of such an alleged event, even one made by a convicted criminal. Particularly in light of Murphy’s August, 2003 beating of Hooks, and the fact the village settled the Wilson case.

But then, Jim Ryan’s never been mistaken for a competent police administrator, except by Anthony "Lil MAC" Calderone—who’s never been mistaken for a competent Police Commissioner-- except by some of his fellow commissioners and a number of voters too stupid or disinterested to care.

We'll hear at length what another judge thinks of Ryan in the next 24 hours.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30/July/2008 at 12:53pm
And nobody's trying to make judgments of the FPPD "as a unit." They're judging Murphy, Ryan, and indirectly, our inept Police Commissioner.

These documents I'm quoting from are the same documents any news outlet relies on, Illogic. Deal with it.
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