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Elementary School Restructuring

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piehead View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piehead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 11:06am
Originally posted by mochalatte mochalatte wrote:

There are approx. 100 students, I think, at Grant White.  We would have to spread the $$ we take in 100 more ways.  We pay for field trips.  We give so much money per student to our room parents.  we pay for assemblies.  We give $ to every teacher to buy things for their classrooms.  There will be 100 more students to send on field trips, which means less per student.  There will be twice the # of classrooms to give $ to for items, etc.  


So there's no PTA at Grant White?  And if the current PTA included Grant White, they wouldn't help contribute or raise money for these trips; just the mothers at your school are the only willing ones to do this?  Or that's your perception?


Edited by piehead - 02/October/2008 at 11:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shoes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 11:07am
 My issues would be the same if my children went to any of the 4 schools. School is not books only. Older kids and younger kids learn from each other.
 
 Dr. Cavallo has found studies on the pros and I found a con. Care to read...... 
 
I do not know the things that go on in the other schools and I do not know how the other principals run the other schools and this is no offense to any of the other principals but as far as extra's in eduction Garfield's principal makes it a great place to be!
 
 No matter what the out come is my children will still go to the Forest Park schools and I will make sure they are always happy and stay a very involved parent but it is everyones right to put up a fight for what they believe in!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martini Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 11:14am
Shoes, I am glad to see your last paragraph, that I think is what is missing from some other people's perspective.  We don't always get what we want it life. We can fight for it and get it, if not we adjust.
 
As for your statement about the principal I hear she is wonderful also but I have heard the same about other principals in the district and you admit you don't know anything about them.  Fortunately, it sounds as if you are willing to give them a chance though and for that I commend you.
 
BTW, Dr. Cavallo has pointed out Cons on this proposal and has indicated that the Citizen Advisory group is going to be doing further research on it.  I don't think it is fair to characterize him as only showing the Pros.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martini Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 11:32am
Amen Buster!  That is another big problem here is that there are some who were unwilling to look at any of the positive aspects of this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote buster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 11:33am
Again, anyone have any feedback from last night's meeting at Betsy?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martini Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 11:42am
I was there and found it very informative. 
 
Both the pros and cons were presented and Dr. Cavallo said repeatedly that this is not a done deal, it is a proposal that is being looked into very deeply.  He also gave the reasons why it was being proposed and what other options had been looked into and why they wouldn't work.
 
There was no screaming and yelling and all the questions seemed to be legitimate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mochalatte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 1:00pm

And besides, our PTA is made up more than 70 members, so that's one heck of a "clique."  and our $$ goes to the State PTA which works for all children.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eyesonthecorner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by mochalatte mochalatte wrote:

We haven't just passed out flyers to our neighborhood.  We've passed them out all over Grant White's area too.  we want everyone informed.  Just because we are more vocal about it doesn't make it a Garfield/GrantWhite fight.  I have talked with plenty of Betsy and Field and some Grant White parents who don't want it.  it's just that many parents didn't realize the impact of the proposal because the letter that came home was so vague.  As word is getting out, more and more are against it.  Unfortunately they're afraid to speak because of what's happening to Garfield or they're afraid their school may close.   Our Kindergarten classes are full.  Our enrollment has always gone in cycles.  It's coming around again.  let's give it a chance before we do this.


I am new here and may not know my way around yet, but I do know that I have not received one thing about this proposal.  And I am in the Grant White area.  I am not afraid to voice my opinion on this or any other subject that has to do with the education of our children. 
I have heard from many Garfield and Betsy Ross parents about how bad this is going to be for "their" children.  But I think we need to look at the bigger picture here!!  In the beginning it may be hard, but in the long run is it a good solution?  I do not know the answer and wish I could have made the meeting last night.  I plan on going to the others. 

Oh and I should point out that I do have school aged children, they go to private school.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piehead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by mochalatte mochalatte wrote:

There is no PTA at Grant, (which is different from a PTO) so that point is invalid too.  We can't combine with their pta because they don't have one.  


Any reasons why they do not have one?  Do the other grammar schools have PTA's?  Is the lack of a PTA at Grant White indicative of a lack of parental involvement of the student body there?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mochalatte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 1:30pm
That's ok with me, poker, if you don't want to get to know me.  I would have nothing in common with someone who judges and makes unfounded accusations.

Pie, Betsy has a PTO, but I don't believe that GW or Field have one.  I could be wrong.  A Garfield principal from long ago wanted at least one PTA because our dues go to the State PTA to help with legislation for all the kids of Illinois.  We are bound by different rules than a PTO, which raises money for their school only.  We encourage people to join because their dues go to the State PTA, who fights for all kids in Illinois.  Kind of ironic, isn't it, that the school being accused of just looking out for our own is the only one whose money goes to fight for all kids of Illinois.

And please, that isn't a dig at PTO's either.  they are just as important and the parents work just as hard.  I was just making a point.


Edited by mochalatte - 02/October/2008 at 1:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 1:47pm
What problems exist at G-W that don't exist at Garfield? A serious question. Do parents view Grant-White as a dangerous school?

Edited by logic - 02/October/2008 at 1:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote itsme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 1:51pm
Poker, I have been watching you go back and forth with Mocha and can't believe how sarcastic and antagonistic you are. He/she is explaining things, answering questions, and you just keep coming back with garbage. Do you have anything informative to add? How about your opinion about the plan? Do you have kids in the schools? Someone like you who wants to find fault can pick apart any comment and make it look bad. I didn't take the post about the PTA as anything other than an explanation to Pie about the differences. Take an anger management course.

Originally posted by Watcher Watcher wrote:

] Note: The Class/Race/Elite tangent of the ESR proposal have been moved to
Elitism, Classism, Racism and other isms


Edited by watcher - 06/December/2008 at 11:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eyesonthecorner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by logic logic wrote:

What problems exist at G-W that don't exist at Garfield? A serious question. Do parents view Grant-White as a dangerous school?


Part of the problem that I see at GW is that there is not a lot of parents involved in the school or their children.  I live in the area (right down the street) and know that there are a few latch key kids just on my block alone.  There are parents who have to work extra jobs to just keep their heads above water. (which all of us may have to do soonWink )Not  a lot of time for parenting or help in other areas. (PTA, PTO, or homework for that matter)  Are these parents worst than others?  Some may be.  Do they care about their children?  I am sure most of them do, contrary to popular belief.

I decided to send my child to private school for many reasons.  Belief, safety and community.  I do not feel that Grant White has a huge family feeling.  Safety because of some prolems with some of the kids on the block.  And belief I am sure you can figure it out. 

Now remember this is just my opinion and other people in our area may see it different.


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Originally posted by mochalatte mochalatte wrote:


That's ok with me, poker, if you don't want to get to know me.  I would have nothing in common with someone who judges and makes unfounded accusations.Pie, Betsy has a PTO, but I don't believe that GW or Field have one.  I could be wrong.  A Garfield principal from long ago wanted at least one PTA because our dues go to the State PTA to help with legislation for all the kids of Illinois.  We are bound by different rules than a PTO, which raises money for their school only.  We encourage people to join because their dues go to the State PTA, who fights for all kids in Illinois.  Kind of ironic, isn't it, that the school being accused of just looking out for our own is the only one whose money goes to fight for all kids of Illinois.And please, that isn't a dig at PTO's either.  they are just as important and the parents work just as hard.  I was just making a point.


Two schools had/have PTA and two have PTO. This was a Art Jones/Joe Scolire innovation. Both groups have parent organizations but let the local associations direct their own efforts. Having both gave access to the information and resources of both larger groups, which could then be SHARED at a local level where there is supposed to be articulation between the four schools.

The Middle School opted for a Boosters structure which again had an umbrella group which brought a third resource into play.

Like Community Ed., it has probably lost its original purpose over time.

"It is a wreave belief that we already are in Hell."- Tuluk in Frank Herbert's "Whipping Star"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pokerdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 2:09pm
Itsme:
You and others made many the comments on this board. Ask yourself why you posted them. Did you want to start a discussion or persuade people to your point of view.
Go back and look them over.
The conclusions anyone wants to make are there.
Thats what happens when you post in black and white. Some people intrepret it one way and some people intrepret it another way.
Some people here agree with my statments and you think its sarcastic and antogonistic.
Thats life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote itsme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 4:38pm
I guess I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.  If Mocha says that it's important to keep his/her kids together, I understand that.  If PTA is important to the Garfield families because they provide great programs and extras for their students, I get that too.  If GW does not have a PTA, whatever the circumstances for that, it would be hard to convince people to suddenly take an interest or find the time.  And Mocha is right, there is only one PTA.
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If we had real leadership this would be seen as an opportunity, not a problem.

And FYI, property values in FP are highest within 3 blocks of Madison, north and south. Some of that is in the Garfield District and some in Garfield, I think.
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Most of the arguments that I hear against going to a development center style of school centers on the fact that parents don't want their own kids split up (bound to happen sooner or later) and don't want to have to take their kids to mulitple schools (bound to happen sooner or later), or what the parental involvment at these new schools will be (impossible to tell). When I hear that there is no active PTO or PTA at a school, I don't look at that and say that the parents for those schools are not involved or don't care about their kids education, I look at it more as there is not a strong leader amongst the parents who wants to take charge and get the ball rolling for an organization. There are other ways to become involved with your childerns education than donating a couple of bucks to the PTA or chaparoning a dance. What we truly need to focus on in this debate are the children and their ability to learn in an environment that is more conducive for their well being. I can't see what is wrong with wanting to 1/2 of the 2nd graders to one school and 1/2 to another or 5th or K, whatever the grade. This will ensure that we balance our classes to a fair number for each room. The advantages to the teachers is tremendous as well. If a 1st grade teacher has a specific problem at Betsy Ross or G-W, and she or he can't figure out how to handle a situation, he or she does not have a peer handling the same situations with the same age group. How is this not beneficial for the children. I don't blame parents that don't want to make the switch because their children are doing well and they are able to attend the closest school. That is how the system is supposed to work and for a lot of people it does. But take a look at the bigger picture and see how the school board is trying to make it a better situation for all of the students.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote itsme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/October/2008 at 10:48pm
I would think there are better ways to help schools than by disrupting others.  Is the real reason enrollment?  Have any other alternatives been tried to increase it?  Is the real reason money, combining classrooms to get rid of teachers?  There are other ways to cut costs than lose our valuable teachers.  Is the real reason test scores?  There are other ways to increase test scores.   Really, should we make 50% of our study body be bused to other locations so the teachers can communicate easier?  Come on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vorots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/October/2008 at 1:12pm
To be very clear, they are not looking at laying off any teachers as part of this proposal. He made that very clear during the meeting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martini Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/October/2008 at 3:06pm
Vorots makes a very good point.  What is the affect on the children?  That's what is really important here.  If it is annoying to the parents or disrupts their lives but enhances their children's education wouldn't it be better to do it?
 
I wonder how many of these parents would drive their children all the way to Lincoln Park if they could attend the Latin School for free?  Probably a good amount of them.
 
The parents argue that it disrupts the children's lives but at the same time say if the district does this they will move out of FP or move their children to private school.  Isn't that a disruption also?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/October/2008 at 9:54pm
Heard through the grapevine, if the restructuring wasn't implemented, one of our schools would be closed and that school would be Grant-White. True? Also with declining enrollment, the projection up to 10yrs down the line, how could they guarantee teachers would not be laid-off?
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I believe that's only if enrollment continues down significantly, like by 100 students, in the next couple of years.  That's not likely to happen.   I was told our kindergarten classes are at capacity so that's a good sign.  However, someone who went to the meeting told me that he doesn't believe the Middle School affects our enrollment.  Does he have blinders on?  So many families have moved because of it, so obviously if there are younger children in the family, they go with them.  It's happening more and more.  Maybe if he worked on the ms to change people's perceptions of it, we wouldn't lose so many families and our enrollment would be fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/October/2008 at 11:18pm
First it was losing families because of Proviso, now MS has developed a reputation for chronic behavior problems not being dealt with in a manner conducive to providing kids with a safe learning environment. Some children will do fine there, others not. Do you play the odds or take steps to secure a more peaceful environment for children to learn, grow? To be honest haven't received any info, this yr, on how MS is doing.

Parents' perception of MS does affect enrollment, it did with our family and at least several others of which I'm personally aware. Move the older child, younger siblings go too. Add to that the families moving out of FP simply b/c they don't want their kids to attend MS or Proviso, can't afford private school. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote itsme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/October/2008 at 11:23pm
Exactly, but our supt. thinks solving the problem is by grade level schools.  If enrollment continues to go down, he'll still have to close a school in two years.  Now I know why parents are fighting this so hard.  He's not looking at the real source of the problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vorots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/October/2008 at 9:09am
But if the attendance at the MS is rising, how does that confirm the notion of an exodus of families because of the MS?
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Give us the numbers, vorots. The projection is for an overall loss of students. Transient families as opposed to homeowners? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vorots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/October/2008 at 9:52am
Don't have numbers, just going of the of presentation. I do find it odd that when the new developments in town were being proposed the fear was that people who moved in would flood our school systems and overtax our resources, but now that we are seeing a decline in the primary schools it seems to be the consensus that people are leaving the town. Which is it? Are people moving into the Grove and the Commons and well lets just forget about the Roos for the next couple of years and flooding the schools with kids, or it is like the developers predicted and mainly DINKs that are buying them up. Sorry to get sidetracked there, just a random thought that I had. For the numbers go to the next presentation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/October/2008 at 10:18am
Originally posted by vorots vorots wrote:

Are people moving into the Grove and the Commons and well lets just forget about the Roos for the next couple of years and flooding the schools with kids, or it is like the developers predicted and mainly DINKs that are buying them up. Sorry to get sidetracked there, just a random thought that I had. For the numbers go to the next presentation.
Have heard the condos at the Grove are not selling. Commons, don't know, the Roos pretty much at a stand still. Won't be at the next presentation, grandchildren have left the FP public school system, my working hrs preclude attendance at most meetings, events.


Edited by logic - 04/October/2008 at 10:18am
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Everyone knows that families move by MS, not all but many.  I myself know of several.  The point is the supt. only sees one option, the one he's proposing, and says he's open to input but won't let anyone speak at the forums.  Nothing else has been researched or attempted.  He refused to believe the MS chases families away.  He obviously isn't in touch yet with the community.  
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