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Forum on the Roos/ November 12th

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citizen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/November/2009 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by Barb Wire Barb Wire wrote:


What is the contingency plan if this proposal falls thru?  And if the answer is "nothing", it should make one think about the necessity of said proposal.  Is this a "need to do" or a "want to do"?  If the latter, does the desire outweigh the expense and risk?

All questions worth asking oneself.
i get your point, but not sure it is a fair frame. 
parks, in general, are not a 'need to' in the sense of life/death. but neither are libraries, or community centers or even the christmas charm on madison st (noticed them all lit up last night - lovely.)
what would chicago be w/out our parks and protected lakefront?
can you imagine the US w/out our national parks?
it's a different kind of investment.


Edited by citizen - 18/November/2009 at 5:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arneharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/November/2009 at 6:04pm
In the context of the rest of Barb's args (stating what FP already has, other uses, et al) it's definitely fair frame.  Of course, when you're talking taxes, all is fair frame IMO. :)







Edited by arneharris - 18/November/2009 at 6:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/November/2009 at 6:22pm
i drove by the park this afternoon. the circle in front of the admin bldg could possibly be beautified and/or functionalized - a walking path, a small playground, exercise stations?
those ^ were a few of the ideas kicking around at the meeting.
but i didn't get the impression they solved the larger need which seems to be inside space for programs - pre-school, teens, seniors, etc.
 
just keeping the front part of the roos bldg offers up 24,000 sf.
many in the audience were salivating at the idea of a gymnasium - dad/coaches :)
saw one comment at the review wanting an ice rink. done well, those are moneymakers.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JM303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/November/2009 at 7:14pm
Maybe the reason businesses are not lined up to move in have to do with how current or future businesses are treated.  Think Elite Tire...finally approved and then a competitor allowed to move into the space moved out of.  Does the Village Plan call for expansion of the park?  Why is this not asked, but a business owner trying to expand has to wait years for a decision as to whether his plan follows the "plan."  Wouldn't a park require more parking?  Well now there's less with the nearby Harvard rebuild.  Is anything thought out in this village?  The village already has property where the YMCA is not building.  How about a second park there?  While quick action may be necessary if the village wants to obtain the property, there are a lot of options not even looked at yet.


Edited by JM303 - 18/November/2009 at 7:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/November/2009 at 7:18pm
let's put this up, for inspiration :)
PBS, 24" preview of Ken Burns', The National Parks: America's Best Idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/November/2009 at 8:13am
Let's not get lost or sidetracked too much here.

The crux of the issue is that this is a ONE-time OPPORTUNITY. There ought to be a more compelling reason NOT to buy the property than it's not a good time to buy land, or that because of other taxing bodies' impacts, taxes are too high.
If this doesn't happen now, it's unlikely to happen. EVER.

It is pretty short-sighted thinking to forgo this opportunity and have to deal with whatever development steps into the void.
Considering the mostly unacceptable prospect of high-density housing that would undoubtedly require even MORE density to attract an investor. Given the village's propensity to over-indulge and its failure to see beyond the next council meeting. AND the fact that we ARE the Park District. Past, present and future. Gaining control of the land, securing it against whatever development scam is next to assert itself and providing a little elbow room, breathing room and a place for present and future needs must trump any petty objections.

The potentials outweigh any and all objections. Even if it takes years to develop the land's highest and best public use. Buy it and it belongs to our future. Don't buy it and we cede control. It sure seems like something has been trying to help us see the wisdom and seize the opportunity. Call it fate or destiny if you must, but whatever the explanation, it's our opportunity, NOW, to make this happen.







Edited by watcher - 19/November/2009 at 9:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martini Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/November/2009 at 9:03am
Watcher is right.  This is opportunity knocking for crissakes answer!
 
The positives far outweigh any negatives on this.  We preserve a historic building, we provide services to all age groups, we turn a blighted property into a vibrant, thriving center of usefulness.  All for less per month than ordering a takeout pizza.
 
I would love to have a work out facility available right here in town so I don't have to travel to Oak Park, Maywood or Melrose Park.  During the summer I could walk there adding to my exercise.  Its a win-win to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/November/2009 at 9:13am
on the idea that the property could have a for-profit, tax paying owner...that idea in this economy sure makes me nervous.
 
i think the very best we could expect (now) would be a developer that would buy and hold - for years - until the economy would support their 'whatever.' or a buyer could purchase strictly as an investment to flip at the right time? that limbo could go on for a very long time.
 
not sure what leverage the village would have during that time - would the building continue to sit and rot?
btw, it appears that the northern 2/3rds of the roos is already rotting and molding, from unfinished work by previous developer. eek.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/November/2009 at 9:15am
Originally posted by Martini Martini wrote:

All for less per month than ordering a takeout pizza.
thread winner!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arneharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/November/2009 at 9:38am
Sounds simple, eh?  Donate a pizza's worth of money per month at whatever you feel needs to be done.


"the sickly pale peach colored glare of the street light " - (streaming in backman's window...)
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Sorry, I don't buy the whole ONE-time OPPORTUNITY thought. The land has been up for sale before, and there is no guarentee that the next owner will subdivide the plot into residences. If it is not subdivided, then it will come up for sale again. Was there a huge outcry for the PD to buy the land the last time it changed ownership? Whatabout before real estate prices started their climb? I would hate to see this passes and our taxes increased so that we can jump up and down and proclaim that we have acquired more greenspace that will never be available again. Wasn't that the claim when the village bought Altenheim? That it was a chance to acquire land and there wasn't any large chunks of land left int he village. Speaking of...Watcher "The potentials outweigh any and all objections. Even if it takes years to develop the land's highest and best public use. Buy it and it belongs to our future. Don't buy it and we cede control. It sure seems like something has been trying to help us see the wisdom and seize the opportunity. Call it fate or destiny if you must, but whatever the explanation, it's our opportunity, NOW, to make this happen." Was this your same feeling for the Altenheim property? If not, what is the difference between the two?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piehead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/November/2009 at 9:46am
A friend of mine has an interesting idea for the whole Roos property. He thinks FPParkD should try and get the Bulls or Blackhawks to buy in to the project and have them build up the property with gym and ice rink. They pay for the naming rights and help with turning it into a center where workshops could be held for all the children in the area (including kids from the mean west side), year round.

Not sure I agree with it but it's an interesting idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Number6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/November/2009 at 10:09am
Originally posted by piehead piehead wrote:

A friend of mine has an interesting idea for the whole Roos property. He thinks FPParkD should try and get the Bulls or Blackhawks to buy in to the project and have them build up the property with gym and ice rink. They pay for the naming rights and help with turning it into a center where workshops could be held for all the children in the area (including kids from the mean west side), year round.

Not sure I agree with it but it's an interesting idea.


I like this idea.  A lot.  But I think that philanthropic investment on the part of athletes or anyone does hinge on first securing the property.  They won't waste time on something that isn't sure to see the light of day.  Most of them anyway.  But the park district or Friends of the Park should start feeling out the potential here and developing relationships with the philanthropic wing of these and other organizations. Work that rolodex baby!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barb Wire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/November/2009 at 10:29am
Originally posted by arneharris arneharris wrote:

Sounds simple, eh?  Donate a pizza's worth of money per month at whatever you feel needs to be done.




For just the cost of a cup of coffee and doughnut a day, you can sponsor a FP police officer.  Your generous donation will see that a cop doesn't have to go hungry or sleep on the streets instead of in his police cruiser.
How's that Roos property working out for YOU?
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Originally posted by watcher watcher wrote:

Let's not get lost or sidetracked too much here.

The crux of the issue is that this is a ONE-time OPPORTUNITY. There ought to be a more compelling reason NOT to buy the property than it's not a good time to buy land, or that because of other taxing bodies' impacts, taxes are too high.
If this doesn't happen now, it's unlikely to happen. EVER.

It is pretty short-sighted thinking to forgo this opportunity and have to deal with whatever development steps into the void.
Considering the mostly unacceptable prospect of high-density housing that would undoubtedly require even MORE density to attract an investor. Given the village's propensity to over-indulge and its failure to see beyond the next council meeting. AND the fact that we ARE the Park District. Past, present and future. Gaining control of the land, securing it against whatever development scam is next to assert itself and providing a little elbow room, breathing room and a place for present and future needs must trump any petty objections.

The potentials outweigh any and all objections. Even if it takes years to develop the land's highest and best public use. Buy it and it belongs to our future. Don't buy it and we cede control. It sure seems like something has been trying to help us see the wisdom and seize the opportunity. Call it fate or destiny if you must, but whatever the explanation, it's our opportunity, NOW, to make this happen.



You're giving me diabetes with your whole "manifest destiny" sales approach. 
How's that Roos property working out for YOU?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/November/2009 at 10:34am
Originally posted by vorots vorots wrote:

Sorry, I don't buy the whole ONE-time OPPORTUNITY thought. The land has been up for sale before, and there is no guarentee that the next owner will subdivide the plot into residences. If it is not subdivided, then it will come up for sale again. Was there a huge outcry for the PD to buy the land the last time it changed ownership? Whatabout before real estate prices started their climb? I would hate to see this passes and our taxes increased so that we can jump up and down and proclaim that we have acquired more greenspace that will never be available again. Wasn't that the claim when the village bought Altenheim? That it was a chance to acquire land and there wasn't any large chunks of land left int he village. Speaking of...Watcher "The potentials outweigh any and all objections. Even if it takes years to develop the land's highest and best public use. Buy it and it belongs to our future. Don't buy it and we cede control. It sure seems like something has been trying to help us see the wisdom and seize the opportunity. Call it fate or destiny if you must, but whatever the explanation, it's our opportunity, NOW, to make this happen." Was this your same feeling for the Altenheim property? If not, what is the difference between the two?



Yes, it was my same feeling for the Altenheim property, except that voters weren't asked for approval and certainly weren't included in the re-development process. With the YMCA deal dead, I would like to see a more open planning process for the Altenheim that retains a goodly chunk for long-term public use.
It wasn't my feeling for 1000 Beloit, 1138 Lathrop, the Randolph street properties and other land purchases that were also made without voter approval. Specifically, because the village paid too much for properties in which they were instrumental in causing/allowing the blighted conditions that brought about the sale. (In case you didn't notice, there is a not-so-subtle difference between Park District and Village real estate dealings.)

It was also my same feeling for the former Naval Property where Wal-Mart now stands and the former Moose property, both of which would have been acceptable sites for public use. But the Roos property has ALWAYS been the most logical extension of public space.

I supported the library in both referendums and still believe the larger building was the better plan. I was not against the conversion of the Torpedo plant into the Mall, but I did express concerns that too much was being given by the taxpayers for little or no return with NO guaranties. The same holds for Walgreen's and other taxpayer incentivized deals in which the Village realized revenue at the expense of our parks and schools and proceeded with the deals despite objections from "lesser" taxing bodies.

The difference between all of the above and the proposed Roos purchase is that the park district has been accountable and transparent in its role, has exercised its powers and responsibilities in responsive and progressive ways for the benefit of ALL. While the village has run amok, in ways that are only secondarily, or purely accidentally of benefit to the residents and taxpayers.

The PD isn't perfect, but they're always working on it. This opportunity has shaken them out of the complacency and uncertainty of past boards. They're making a plea for our support and have presented an achievable goal.

And yes, this is a LAST CHANCE opportunity. My biggest fear/regret is that having to go through this process hurts our bargaining power.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/November/2009 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by Barb Wire Barb Wire wrote:

You're giving me diabetes with your whole "manifest destiny" sales approach. 


Don't know about manifest, but there's a clear opportunity for destiny to have a role.

I'm not sure what your more cops approach nets us. I still live on the best block in a great little town. It's funny how many others feel that way about their street in FoPa.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/November/2009 at 10:02pm
ok. there are two outstanding issues to be addressed:
1) underutilization of programs
2) where does all the old referendum money go?
 
please.
these issues may not matter all that much to me, but they must be addressed to bring in the needed voters.
and they're good things to kick around, in any case.
 
 
 
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the review, which has already declared its support, airs the issue of program utilization.
don't know much on this issue, but appears i am not alone.
 
i think a professional study is needed. of course that won't happen before the referendum.
we have special challenges as a small town, a diverse town, and an urban burb.
 
 
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Originally posted by citizen citizen wrote:

the review, which has already declared its support, airs the issue of program utilization.
don't know much on this issue, but appears i am not alone.
i think a professional study is needed. of course that won't happen before the referendum.
we have special challenges as a small town, a diverse town, and an urban burb.


The only thing I could think as I read was HOLY s**t! Where is my duct tape?

It seemed like Josh was trying to write something positive but got no help.

For the PRESIDENT of the Park Board to say "That's a good question"?!?!?
when asked why people should/would vote for this? Musta been that gotcha journalism we hear so much about.

What she may have meant to say is:
ALL of the park's indoor programs take place in one of TWO rooms in the building. They are big rooms, but not very adaptable. They are in use every day and EVERY night. Some time slots just aren't conducive to normal schedules. Offering more means either sharing space or meeting at space acquired off-site. You can't mix Dodgeball and Tiny Tots tumbling. Floor hockey and ballet. Scheduling is tight to say the least.
Prime-time space just isn't available. So unless you're going to take midnight Yoga classes or 4 am Quilting, the only way to expand the prime-time offerings is to expand the available space to hold classes.

The park has never had adequate space to meet the need. The very real space limitations assures that most programs can't build and grow. People move on to specialized commercial instruction, join fitness clubs etc. and all the things that the park program is unable to fill because they don't have ROOM. Ask Panda Studios or Tri-star or some of the martial arts studios how many of their students were introduced to the activity through the park. That's fine for more advanced studies, but it leaves recreational patrons with nowhere to go.

Getting an instructor to come in for one class per week with no real potential to expand is tough. 24,000 square feet of indoor space changes everything. It creates an opportunity to have real progression in activities.

Of course the President of the Park board might have said all this, but that might be construed as promoting the referendum, which the board president cannot do. Josh may have made mention that the laws prohibit the board and administrators from actively campaigning for the referendum, but that would have been an entirely different story?














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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26/November/2009 at 10:07am
yeah :) far as i know, facts are still allowed.
 
let's be grateful for the point you have made, that the lack of physical facilities are the heart of the programming problem. a follow-up letter to ed is needed. pronto.
 
also wonder if 'tours' would be useful.
my first visit to the admin bldg was a few weeks ago for the first referendum mtg. 
the overwhelming stimulus in the 2nd floor was the noise in the room, i.e. the squeaky wood floors. let me assure you, this was not your 'ordinary' squeaky floor noise.
it was literally impossible to hear the speakers if others (anyone!) were walking. perhaps the regulars are used to this, but i could not imagine classes being held w/this severe handicap.
also, couldn't figure our how such a large space would be efficient to smaller classes, or concurrent classes.
 
more physical detail on how classes are held, and adapted to the less than optimum spaces would be useful.
 


Edited by citizen - 26/November/2009 at 10:09am
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So that everybody understands.

(10 ILCS 5/9-25.1) Sec. 9-25.1. Election interference. (a) As used in this Section, "public funds" means any funds appropriated by the Illinois General Assembly or by any political subdivision of the State of Illinois. (b) No public funds shall be used to urge any elector to vote for or against any candidate or proposition, or be appropriated for political or campaign purposes to any candidate or political organization. This Section shall not prohibit the use of public funds for dissemination of factual information relative to any proposition appearing on an election ballot, or for dissemination of information and arguments published and distributed under law in connection with a proposition to amend the Constitution of the State of Illinois. (c) The first time any person violates any provision of this Section, that person shall be guilty of a Class B misdemeanor. Upon the second or any subsequent violation of any provision of this Section, the person violating any provision of this Section shall be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.

Google "election interference" for a sampling of how this law has been applied.

It has amounted to a gag order on elected/appointed officials. Unless there is an interpretive body, in this case Friends of the Park, it's just the "facts". No speculation.


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Has the PD addresses the fact that their current services have poor to no attendence. Before I sink $6 mil into a project, I would like to have something other than...We think that we will see a boost in the amount of services that are actually used. Sorry but the more and more that I look into this and try my hardest to find a way to support it. Just having a snazzy looking building doesn't help the old checking account feel any better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/December/2009 at 11:58am
Originally posted by vorots vorots wrote:

Has the PD addresses the fact that their current services have poor to no attendence. Before I sink $6 mil into a project, I would like to have something other than...We think that we will see a boost in the amount of services that are actually used. Sorry but the more and more that I look into this and try my hardest to find a way to support it. Just having a snazzy looking building doesn't help the old checking account feel any better.


Come to the Friends of the Park meeting tonight. Maybe you can find some answers.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/December/2009 at 3:06pm
I looked at the FOTP website under the section for financial info. I don't see it as a complete analysis.

If the Roos was/is developed as 160 living units, that would be income to FP.

160 units x $4000.00 avg. property tax = $640,000.00. Forest Parks share at 16% would be $102,400.00.

In addition there would be a huge chunk for our schools, not to mention that housing there would probably not generate a particularly large number of school age children.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martini Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/December/2009 at 5:25pm
Are you planning on developing it yourself?  Because as I recall the last 2 developers were not to your liking.  And speaking of the last 2 developers where are they?  All I see is a blighted building that is causing nothing but problems for the area.  I don't see ANY tax revenue coming in on it.
 
Yeah, wouldn't it be great if someone came along and developed it in such a way that we could make money off it.  Wake up, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.  Let's do something useful with the property while we can.
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I'd rather have the park district acquire and develop the property for public uses and see private development elsewhere, spurred, in part, by more and improved park district programming.

Unless you want folks who move here for the quality of the high school.
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Originally posted by Mr. D Mr. D wrote:

Unless you want folks who move here for the quality of the high school.
ouch. that was a low blow. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piehead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/December/2009 at 5:53pm
Don't think they would be able to sell 160 units. The Residences of the Grove aren't selling and now they are renting them out. We don't need more rental property; heck, we don't need more high density properties. We have our fair share as it is.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/December/2009 at 6:57pm
not attending tonight. watcher, hope you will report on mtg.
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